Politics at its finest!

[NAW-LawDog]

Politics?  War?  Well hell, lets talk about em.

Lets start with "Religion"

Christians - In the past did multiple crusades "In the name of God" and kill countless people.  Thankfully this religion has toned down alot since those times. 

Jewish - Suffered mass persecution at the hands of just about everone.  During the days of Jesus, into WWII and still today.
But there religion says anyone that is not a Jew is a "Gentile" (Pretty much scum of the earth).

Islam - Now this is a dirty religion, that is twisted into so many forms that its hard to actually clarify what the Islam Religion is now and days.  This religion refers to any NON-Muslim people as infidels.  (Yep, Still scum according to them)

Heres my issue with religion.  It SUX ass.  Its been the cause of or prelude to just about every war ever fought. 
I'm an Atheist.  Why?  Islam, Judism, Christianity, Buddism, Taoism, Baptism and f***tism ect. ect........are all just to much.

Christianity is probably the only ones that dont teach hate because your not like them.  Gentiles and Infidels the other religions will call you if your not part of them. 

Anyway, thats my take.  It all sux, and the "IM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG" crap usually starts over someone thinking THERE religion calls for you to take over the planet as the supream beings who have "GOD / ALLAH / JAHOVA" on there side.

WAKE UP CALL:  YOU f***ING SUCK SWEATING DONKEY BALLS!  Get a life and quit crying about whos right and wrong like a catholic school girl who lost her virginity at 15!

On to my second point.................

Gods...........

Now, this is pretty point blank, cause there is really no other religion that is so pathetic as to kill women and children in the name of "their" God, but run like bitches in the face of a fire fight.

You have guessed correctly..................the ISLAMIC RELIGION!

Point in case.

1) Suicide bombers at a funeral
2) Suicide bombers at recruitment lines.  (the people making money to rebuild there LIVES IN IRAQ! and build an economy)
3) Suicide bombers at Mosques (which they hold so sacred), But fight from them, but then cry foul when the US levels the f***ing place.  PUSSIES!!!!!!!   
4) Suicide bombers at markets where there are ONLY women and children.  (Ya, your GOD wants that dont he? Allah Akbar my nut sack)
5) IEDs.  Now this is where the line gets fuzzy for me personally.  These guys will go in with bombs strapped to them and blow themselves up, killing a lot of civilians and thats ok.  That same group will run from a fire fight like chickens in a coop.

If ALLAH is on there side, and they will get 72 virgins and are so willing to die, why do they run from a fire fight constantly.
Why run back into Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Iran...ect?  Where is there belief in "ALLAHS WILL" at that point in life?

If ALLAH was on there side, he would protect them right.  He would WILL them to win ANY fire fight or engagement right?
So why dont they hold ground?  Why do they resort to HOMOcide bombing?  Has the Great ALLAH of bullshit
Up and abandoned them?  Forgotten them?  Theres a reason im an athiest.  Anyone that prays as hard as the muslims and still live like shit, and are a religion of hate proves my reasoning.   I think Cowardace and lack of fortitued (NUT SACK) to face the enemy is the issue.  These "Terrorists" (Bitches that wear napkins on there heads) that are running around, thinking this is a simple game of Wolfenstien3d, Doom or Quake. 

20 Marines have died in the past 3 days.  6 From Combat action.  14 by a HOMOcide bomber.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8797271/

All these boys were from the same unit.

OK, rant over.   

SEMPER FIDELIS!!!!!!!!!

LAWDOG

[NAW-LawDog]

And ANOTHER THING!  Why are the ONLY countries that abide by the Geneva Convention are the countries that are world powers?

USA, UK, Germany, France.  Thats basically it.  I would trust NO other country (Dont trust 2 of those 4) to abide by the Genevea Convetion (GC).  But as soon as the US or UK has 3-5 people slip up,  It instantly and world wide epidemic.  Hell, who really cares if the Islamo clown patrol is executing and cutting heads off daily, they dont have to abide by the GC.
So its ok if they do it, but you better not be to harsh on them or were going to tell on you.  *UHG!*

Law

[NAW-ubastm]

Guys, Dawg warned us that this topic might end in a flame war.  I like to discuss, seeing others people oppinion, but not to flame..
so please let me know if I crossed "a border.."

I can and do respect other oppinion, here his mine:

Islamic is not "the bad religion", it is simply a other version of the bible, leaving out that crazy guy named Jesus...
The point is HOW you interpret this book/ the story....

Point in case.

1) Suicide bombers at a funeral
2) Suicide bombers at recruitment lines.  (the people making money to rebuild there LIVES IN IRAQ! and build an economy)
3) Suicide bombers at Mosques (which they hold so sacred), But fight from them, but then cry foul when the US levels the f***ing place.  PUSSIES!!!!!!!   
4) Suicide bombers at markets where there are ONLY women and children.  (Ya, your GOD wants that dont he? Allah Akbar my nut sack)
5) IEDs.  Now this is where the line gets fuzzy for me personally.  These guys will go in with bombs strapped to them and blow themselves up, killing a lot of civilians and thats ok.  That same group will run from a fire fight like chickens in a coop.

Allmost the same happens in the US civil war....

Look what happens at the western crusades, inquisition and so one. thousands of people died.

I understand that you as a American do not have the best oppinion about Islam. But do you remember what YOUR country have done in: Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Southamerica  and right now in the Arabic countries??

Compared to Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran what was USA looking lets say 60 years ago??

Dont missunderstand me, the point I dont understand: Why should I go to a country hundreds, even thousends of miles from my home to Kill other people. Why should I kill other people even near my home??

Because religion matters?? Or maybe economic interests??

I feel sorry for all that guys killed, no matter of origin (country) religion and so on.

But I do understand the Iraqi resistance. What would you feel if any country in the world decide that your political system is evil/ wrong, occupies your country and force you to follow their system??

I hope you all take this as an opportunity to discuss, not to flame.

thx, i am curious about your replies..

ubastm

[NAW-LawDog]

Thanks for replying Ubastm, I dont see any reason it should turn into a flame war.  If we disagree, it just that.  Hopefully everyone takes that approach and dont take it personnaly.

Look what happens at the western crusades, inquisition and so one. thousands of people died.

I hear ya Ubastm, I mentioned Christianity as doing the same things in there early days.  They arent exempt from partaking in some horrific actions themselves.

I do believe Islam is a religion of hate, more so than other religions.  Thats just how one views it I guess.

Allmost the same happens in the US civil war....

Yes, by the confederacy, which was eventually put down by the Union (United States).

But do you remember what YOUR country have done in: Europe, Korea, Vietnam, Southamerica  and right now in the Arabic countries??

Yes.
In Europe, we helped put down Germany Twice and saved the France, Germany, Italy.....ect.  While fighting Japan on another front.  All those countries are doing fine now, with great economys and are prospering.

Korea - We stopped the North from overrunning the south.  If you look at how the Koreas are today, and there economics, you will see that the south is prospering, while the north is penniesless and its people starving. 

Vietnam - Pretty much the same thing as Korea, stop the north from invading the south.  That war WAS pretty jacked up in many aspects though.  We didnt go there to remove anyone from power or claim the land either.  Police Action is what its been called.  Still, alot of mistakes were made granted.

South America - Dont have enough info on that, see what I can dig up on it.

Arab countries - Yep, in the first Gulf war, stopped Saddam from invading Kuwait.  (Seems like we stop alot of invasions)
Now - We were over there messing with them until the terroist gave us one of there calling cards in the form of a few passanger liners.  Then we went into afghanistan, they ran like hell, and a new government was installed and they got to vote and have freedom.
Iraq - Some say we went for oil, some say WMDs (I dont believe that) and some say just to get rid of Saddam.  I believe it was option 3. 

But I do understand the Iraqi resistance. What would you feel if any country in the world decide that your political system is evil/ wrong, occupies your country and force you to follow their system??

The "Iraqi Resistance" isnt really Iraqi.  Thats the problem.  Most of the fighters are from other nations.  Saudia Arabia, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan ... ect.

The Iraqis that are rebelling are the Sunnis, not the Shia or Kurds.  The Sunnis are rebelling because they were the big wig while Saddam was in power, Saddam being Sunni.  Now they have to share power with the other two, who they have persicuted and executed and tried to exterminate for years now.  So you can understand why they are a little shaken up.

I hope you all take this as an opportunity to discuss, not to flame.

I agree, I like to talk about it and hear others opinions.  So no wankers need post.

Thanks for the disscusion Ubastm, cant wait to get home to see yours or some more thoughts on this.

Law

[NAW-ubastm]

Yes.
In Europe, we helped put down Germany Twice and saved the France, Germany, Italy.....ect. 

Thank you that for..

But as in EVERY WAR, terrible things happens on both sides. (Yes, I am talking about Warcrimes and wrong strategies) and some decisions made from HQ (right from Ike downward)  just horribly wrong/ inhuman.. (Loosing hundreds or thousends of Lives, Soldiers as civilian victims in unnecessarily ways.)
I wont blame any countries Soldiers for doing "terrible things", WAR SUCKS and cant be clean. Just remember that.
Of course, the German Reich had to be stopped, of course mankind must learn from holocaust.

South America - Don't have enough info on that, see what I can dig up on it.

I ll give you some keywords: Cuba, Noriega and Drugbusiness......

Arab countries - Yep, in the first Gulf war, stopped Saddam from invading Kuwait.  (Seems like we stop alot of invasions)
Now - We were over there messing with them until the terroist gave us one of there calling cards in the form of a few passanger liners.  Then we went into afghanistan, they ran like hell, and a new government was installed and they got to vote and have freedom.
Iraq - Some say we went for oil, some say WMDs (I dont believe that) and some say just to get rid of Saddam.  I believe it was option 3.

What means WMDs??

Look at Afghanistan today, is this a liberated, "happy" place now???

Who  supported the Mudjahedin in early 80, gave them weapons and education plus some money??
Shouldn't you  feel responsible after arming/ building and supporting a Strikeforce what is going to happen after the enemy's have gone??

Talking about Iraqi : There is no Iraqi People, it is like the old Yugoslavia a mixed countries. For a short moment, 1958 They had a fine Leadership, they stopped the monarchies, tried to live in peace with the Kurds. But as the Oilbusiness was under governments controll, England and American started pushing right orientated partys like the Baath party....

My problem with the USA is, that they allways are involved in changing leaderships on a dirty way on others countries  just to get economic and strategic advantage, without taking care what could happen in the future.

How can Guantanamo be compatible to the Agreement of Geneva??


Ok, it s late now, have to go to bed.

Looking forward to your replies..

good night

ubastm

[NAW-ubastm]

RE: Changing leaderships in a "dirty way."  Is there a clean way to get rid of evil dictatorships? 

hmm, what s about voting/ revolting??  Let the own people decide who they want to follow... (works in most countries...)


USA has supported many very evils "dictators", as long it was helpfull for us politics.
Why supporting a "evil" country as long it helps. No matter of human rights, fairness. But as soon they stop  following  the us guidlines  the hole country is shocked about the BAD/ EVIL Leadership.

We are by far the most generous country in the world with our billions of dollars in aid to other countries.

Well, i guess it count how "aid" money become invested. Weapons, "security" are not realy HELP.
And don't tell me you have attacked Iraq, just and only to HELP the Iraqi people. There are Econmy reasons.  In my opinion not for USA, but some US concern. The some concerns supporting the acutal goverment..


the Jackasses is the us people (paying tax) and the soldiers..

My opinion..

This is my last post on this topic.  Im to patriotic for my own good I think

well, your desision.

How are we economically and strategically at an atvantage by liberating Iraq and Afghanistan

Afghanistan. After 9. 11 tis country was a MUST to get. (Ask G W Bush, he can explain mutch better than I...
Iraq: [ironic]Maybe it is just a myth, but i guess they do have some oil..[/ironic]

greez

ubastm

[NAW-ubastm]

How soon some forget the Twin Towers crashing down and the lives lost.
 It is better to be fighting this war in Iraq and Afghanistan then in our homeland.

what is the realation between WTC and iraq?
shouldnt you go to saudi arabia that for??

[NAW-LawDog]

What means WMDs??

Weapons of Mass Destructon  (Chemical, Biological, Nuclear...)

Look at Afghanistan today, is this a liberated, "happy" place now???

Liberated.......Yes.

Happy?  Not sure, from what I hear though, being able to vote and not be shot cause you wont grow a beard
seems to be working ok. 

Who  supported the Mudjahedin in early 80, gave them weapons and education plus some money??
Shouldn't you  feel responsible after arming/ building and supporting a Strikeforce what is going to happen after the enemy's have gone??

The USofA baby!  Why?  Because the USSR invaded them and we wanted the USSR to crumble (which it did) so we picked the lesser of the 2 evils.  If you look back at that time frame........with Russia, they were our biggest threat.  There were hostile, Nuke Capable and trigger happy.  We had to make that system erode.  Mission accomplished.

My problem with the USA is, that they allways are involved in changing leaderships on a dirty way on others countries  just to get economic and strategic advantage, without taking care what could happen in the future.

Trying to quote Smitty, There is no clean way to remove a dictator from power or a government.  No one wants to give up power of a country after they have been ruling it for over 20 years and have 20 palaces, 20 slave girls per palace.

How can Guantanamo be compatible to the Agreement of Geneva??

How is it not?  They are allowed to pray.  They get 3 good meals a day.  Exercise.  Do they get interogated?  Hell yes.  Do they get beaten?  No.  Do they get torcherd?  Not even close.  Do they get there heads cut off?  Nope.
My opinion of it is, if your fighting an enemy that dont abide by the GC, then you shouldnt either.  Hence, if we did cut of there nappy heads, I would be fine with it.  Torchure?  Let it rip I say.

Ok, getting everything set for battle, Ill respond more later.

Law

[NAW-ubastm]

Smitty, I am living in Switzerland, (small country, no WMDS.. peacefull democratic country. No it is not Sweden, we are south of germany, east of France, north of Italy and west of Austria...) we do have a lot of bankbusiness, do some of the finest watches and do have excellent chocolate and cheese and some very nice mountains.... (sorry, couldn't resist )

I know I said I wouldn't reply but ...

I am glad you did and hope still want to.....

In 1988 the Kurds tried that and Saddam used chemical weapons on his people killing hundreds of civilians.

No doubt Saddam Hussein has get what he deserved. BUT my point is: as long as it is helpfull to the USA, you even do (and you did!!) support such guys

we picked the lesser of the 2 evils.

..and as soon you achieved your goals (mission accomplished) you don't care any more about it??

Show me somewhere that says another country provides more funds for medicine/food/etc then the US.

Well, i am not able to find actual numbers, as much as i remember Japan, Germany and France do pay almost the same  as USA. Compared to the BSP (brutto social product, I hope you know I mean, I just translated it my self....) NR. 1 -5 is all over Europe, USA somewhere behind. Working to find accurate numbers..

Not sure, from what I hear though, being able to vote and not be shot cause you wont grow a beard
seems to be working OK.

I agree, but Afghanistan still needs a lot help and just time to recover. How big is the US engagement on that? (I really don't know yet...)

The USofA baby!  Why?  Because the USSR invaded them and we wanted the USSR to crumble (which it did) so we picked the lesser of the 2 evils.  If you look back at that time frame........with Russia, they were our biggest threat.  There were hostile, Nuke Capable and trigger happy.  We had to make that system erode.  Mission accomplished.

I agree that USA had to fight the communistm Russian, but the Russians tried (official to prevent a civil war) to not lose the communistic part of Afghanistan. (you did opposite on Korea/ Southvietnam...)
But do you remember that the same extremistic asshole who are responsible (official meaning) for 9.11 are the same extremistic "less evil" you had to choose and that you  have supported??
btw, the Russian have almost the same prob today with tschetschenien (how is this place called English??)

Trying to quote Smitty, There is no clean way to remove a dictator from power or a government.  No one wants to give up power of a country after they have been ruling it for over 20 years and have 20 palaces, 20 slave girls per palace.

I ll try to specify it different: In my opinion you do support evil asshole as long it helps US. On the other hand you do and did help to disstabilize foreign governments if it brings a advantage to US, without taking care what will happen to this country later.

How is it not?  They are allowed to pray.  They get 3 good meals a day.  Exercise.  Do they get interogated?  Hell yes.  Do they get beaten?  No.  Do they get torcherd?  Not even close.  Do they get there heads cut off?  Nope.
  Hence, if we did cut of there nappy heads, I would be fine with it.  Torchure?  Let it rip I say.

Honestly, if there would be only guilty guys, i would care a shit about it. But what if there is only one unguilty guy?
How should I accept that?
"In dubio pro reo" is one of the most important guideline for a working rightsystem..
the other point: How to all that guys come to Guantanamo? better where from??
What I heared, a lot of them get Hijacked from different countries. Not the fine way.....

My opinion of it is, if your fighting an enemy that don't abide by the GC, then you shouldnt either.

fight fire with fire??

I do agree. There are some radical people who must be handled radical. But that is where the problems start. You remember the 50s, as USA hunted communists? It was like the inquisition of the 20th century. Errors where made, and will be made. There is no perfect system against that.
I guess the roots of radicalism is need, jealousy (I took a moment to find that word..) and thirst for revenge.
Maybe this should be fighted. yes I know I am a optimistic, but hey I do fine being so..

Uff a lot in one post.

Hope you have/ had fun playing tonight.
Looking forward to see you guys next week in Game, curios about your replies.

greez

ubastm

[NAW-ubastm]

Well. In fact I am going end of this month to USA my first time to get closer informations and impressions. I am curious to meet a lot of different people there. I am in contact with US people a lot on work. Of course not all of America is presented in my shop. But I do a lot of discussion and I like it.
I guess you missunderstud me or the meaning of this tread. It is to discuss such stuff. Opinions are changeable, facts are not. (IF it really is a fact.)

It never was my intention  to make you feel pissed of, or blame your country in general. To say it clear:  USA did/ does  a lot of good things and  its history is very interesting.
If you can show me facts/  proofs you have nothing to loose.

If it is your goal to make me star and strip loving, Islam and anything else hating thing, you will have a lot of work tough.

If you ask me for my opinion, point of view, I do reply straigth. I am missing your replies..

and remember:

If we disagree, it just that.  Hopefully everyone takes that approach and dont take it personnaly.

ubastm

[NAW-ubastm]

I hope you enjoy your visit to America.

hehe, I will

has nothing but good things to say about all the poeple he met and the places he visited.

Well, europe is not perfect, but we are working on it.....

But a twist can be put on to each senario to make it look as if we have a hidden agenda.

All I want is to understand your point of view. And show you  mine..

One could argue that the 950million dollars that we gave to the recent sunami relief was to buy off countries to secure security forces and to strengthen relations, etc. etc.  This may be a result of the monies pledged but I chose to believe that we did it because it was right.

Are you talking about the help for the victims of the Tsunami??

greez

ubastm

[Bosty]

Wow, I love it.  Political discussion.  Some rules though:

1) No religion or country or lifestyle is perfect, we all just try to do our best with what we know.

2) History is always written by the winner 

I could go on with some flaws in everyone's arguements but will wait until the appropriate time.  FYI Ubastm, I'm from Vermont with the only elected Independant/Socialist Representative in the country, Rep. Bernie Sanders (15 years and counting).  If you can, come to our state, I know you will like it.   

I'm waiting for the backlash...

But remember, before you criticize, Some families have been here longer than others and fighting for this country since its birth...

[NAW-ubastm]

Sounds good, but I am going to San Francisco and a short trip to canada..(have some friends on both locations..)

2) History is always written by the winner

Yes, that is a good one

Bosty, sounds like you work for a tourist office....

have a  nice evening, going to bed now.

ubastm

[NAW-ubastm]

[Reviving tread]...

About Iraq and Nuclear Weapons: the book "the bomb in my garden" by Mahdi Obeidi (or something like that)

He was the guy in charge of Iraqis uranium enrichment program. I  can recommend this book, as it is very informative, sometime even funny and most important (from my point of view) true.

[/reviving tread]

[MadSlob]

RE: Economic and Strategic advantages.   How are we economically and strategically at an atvantage by liberating Iraq and Afghanistan?  I believe we have spent somewhere around $185,600,000,000 on this war to date paid for by American taxpayers.  We are by far the most generous country in the world with our billions of dollars in aid to other countries.


Hi have read the comments with interest and must admit that i come out on the side of ubastm in much of this topic.......Living here in Malmö i have lived amongst iraqis and we have to a limited extent(partly due to poor swedish or english language skills)discussed the war in iraq...It boils down to this basically......The american soldier is not trained for the kind of urban situation in iraq where you have enemies on all sides and no true way of identifying them....The british are much better trained for this kind of action with their experiences in northern irland...theirs is a much more softly softly approach wheras the US military use brute force.....Obviously the climate out there is very difficult for all and mistakes will always be made.it is human nature but when iraqis see these "mistakes" made by coalition forces day in and day out it does instill a certain feeling for revenge.......You must look at it from another perspective.if the situation was reversed and it was the Us who were occupied and women and children were being killed daily im sure as hell that you guys wouldnt sit on your arses and do nothing.it is unthinkable!!!and you cant deny that!The people i have talked to have all said this.men cannot stand around and watch their loved ones being murdered,by mistake or otherwise without taking some kind of action..Sure there are terrorists in Iraq...and i hope they burn in hell for all eternity for their obscene beheading crimes...but not everyone can be a terrorist.
In regards to what america would gain from invading iraq.it is self evident......Since gulf war 1 america has had a large presence in the gulf region,a presence the arab states had been resisting for decades....The gulf has the largest known reserves of oil in the world,he who controls(or at the very least, has major influence)the region controls the flow of oil..Saddam hussein was a monster of a man.a dictaor who was supported and endorsed by the US and the WEST!!!We built the bloke up to be what he was...Our govts knew what he was like and fed his arsenals with weapons especially to counteract the growing power of iran....Hussein was only branded a terrorist when he nationalised the iraqi oil industry and set his own price for oil.before this he was playing to the tune of the west...In the last years of his regime saddam wanted to trade oil for EUROS and not DOLLARS which has traditionally been the currency for buying oil...This trend would have a major impact on the american economy and it is significant to note that the iranians have also set up an oil exchange in trade oil for euros.and now they are under threat of war.......Im not saying that the nuclear issue is not a factor at all as it is ofc but remember we didnt bomb pakistan or india when they announced that they had the bomb........
    it is true what one american writer said..what do WE gain out of all this???billions of tax-payers money has been spent on this war..Indeed!!note the crucial words here "tax-payers"YOUR money NOT theirs!! You gain nothing by this......your sons and daughters die for corporate big business.....They are the real winners here.there is nothing NOTHING like a war for making big big money....And im afraid to say that because it is the corporations who fund the political campaigns of all the major political figures it is the politicians who do the bidding of the corporations......It makes me sick that a country as great as the USA has been manipulated to work in this way.....There are many many fine Americans who deserve much much better than they have in president George W Bush who (apologies to any republicans here who may support him)doesnt know his elbow from his ass..The guy has plunged the US 3 trillion dollars further in debt in 5 years(total US debt roughly 9 trillion dollars).....Companies whom have supplied republican funds for campaigns have seen their profits soar beyond all expectation.The US pays over $2.5 billion a DAY in interest repayments to Federal reserve who are in fact a private bank( owed by a small group of international bankers) who were given the power in 1913 to print america´s money(3 senators voted for it as the rest were on their way to their holidays at the time thinking that the vote would be concluded after the reccess)They print money out of nothing and sell that money to the US government with interest so that the US govt can pay back some of the interest that they already owe..it is a vicious circle ...The solution to the problem would be for the US to sieze control and print their own money..The last president to try this was President kennedy and he was assasinated..........Yes America is generous with its aid but only to those countries which do its corporate bidding:(  .Please do not think i am Anti american.....I most definately am not its just that most americans cant seem to grasp the situation that they are in and believe the bullcrap that they are fed by the corporate media which is about as free and open as saddam hussein is at the minute.....I hope and pray that in the future the american people get a govt whom they deserve and  can be proud of and not some corporate  pet.This is written in respect to my american collegues and not to piss em off

signing off(dont be too hard on me)  MadSlob


some links for you if you are interested

http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/FED.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Bank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_iraqwar.htm