Politics at its finest!

[andy]

check this link - have seen farenheit 9/11 and read his last 2 books.

he is spot on with pretty much everything!

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

signing off.

andy

[killingelmo]

I don't know if it told you already but human life is nothing more as a run to power, and if got to hold it with you until you die

i sad to know but it is nothing more than the true

[MadSlob]

RE: Economic and Strategic advantages.   How are we economically and strategically at an atvantage by liberating Iraq and Afghanistan?  I believe we have spent somewhere around $185,600,000,000 on this war to date paid for by American taxpayers.  We are by far the most generous country in the world with our billions of dollars in aid to other countries.


Hi have read the comments with interest and must admit that i come out on the side of ubastm in much of this topic.......Living here in Malmö i have lived amongst iraqis and we have to a limited extent(partly due to poor swedish or english language skills)discussed the war in iraq...It boils down to this basically......The american soldier is not trained for the kind of urban situation in iraq where you have enemies on all sides and no true way of identifying them....The british are much better trained for this kind of action with their experiences in northern irland...theirs is a much more softly softly approach wheras the US military use brute force.....Obviously the climate out there is very difficult for all and mistakes will always be made.it is human nature but when iraqis see these "mistakes" made by coalition forces day in and day out it does instill a certain feeling for revenge.......You must look at it from another perspective.if the situation was reversed and it was the Us who were occupied and women and children were being killed daily im sure as hell that you guys wouldnt sit on your arses and do nothing.it is unthinkable!!!and you cant deny that!The people i have talked to have all said this.men cannot stand around and watch their loved ones being murdered,by mistake or otherwise without taking some kind of action..Sure there are terrorists in Iraq...and i hope they burn in hell for all eternity for their obscene beheading crimes...but not everyone can be a terrorist.
In regards to what america would gain from invading iraq.it is self evident......Since gulf war 1 america has had a large presence in the gulf region,a presence the arab states had been resisting for decades....The gulf has the largest known reserves of oil in the world,he who controls(or at the very least, has major influence)the region controls the flow of oil..Saddam hussein was a monster of a man.a dictaor who was supported and endorsed by the US and the WEST!!!We built the bloke up to be what he was...Our govts knew what he was like and fed his arsenals with weapons especially to counteract the growing power of iran....Hussein was only branded a terrorist when he nationalised the iraqi oil industry and set his own price for oil.before this he was playing to the tune of the west...In the last years of his regime saddam wanted to trade oil for EUROS and not DOLLARS which has traditionally been the currency for buying oil...This trend would have a major impact on the american economy and it is significant to note that the iranians have also set up an oil exchange in trade oil for euros.and now they are under threat of war.......Im not saying that the nuclear issue is not a factor at all as it is ofc but remember we didnt bomb pakistan or india when they announced that they had the bomb........
    it is true what one american writer said..what do WE gain out of all this???billions of tax-payers money has been spent on this war..Indeed!!note the crucial words here "tax-payers"YOUR money NOT theirs!! You gain nothing by this......your sons and daughters die for corporate big business.....They are the real winners here.there is nothing NOTHING like a war for making big big money....And im afraid to say that because it is the corporations who fund the political campaigns of all the major political figures it is the politicians who do the bidding of the corporations......It makes me sick that a country as great as the USA has been manipulated to work in this way.....There are many many fine Americans who deserve much much better than they have in president George W Bush who (apologies to any republicans here who may support him)doesnt know his elbow from his ass..The guy has plunged the US 3 trillion dollars further in debt in 5 years(total US debt roughly 9 trillion dollars).....Companies whom have supplied republican funds for campaigns have seen their profits soar beyond all expectation.The US pays over $2.5 billion a DAY in interest repayments to Federal reserve who are in fact a private bank( owed by a small group of international bankers) who were given the power in 1913 to print america´s money(3 senators voted for it as the rest were on their way to their holidays at the time thinking that the vote would be concluded after the reccess)They print money out of nothing and sell that money to the US government with interest so that the US govt can pay back some of the interest that they already owe..it is a vicious circle ...The solution to the problem would be for the US to sieze control and print their own money..The last president to try this was President kennedy and he was assasinated..........Yes America is generous with its aid but only to those countries which do its corporate bidding:(  .Please do not think i am Anti american.....I most definately am not its just that most americans cant seem to grasp the situation that they are in and believe the bullcrap that they are fed by the corporate media which is about as free and open as saddam hussein is at the minute.....I hope and pray that in the future the american people get a govt whom they deserve and  can be proud of and not some corporate  pet.This is written in respect to my american collegues and not to piss em off

signing off(dont be too hard on me)  MadSlob


some links for you if you are interested

http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/FED.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Bank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Act
http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_iraqwar.htm

I wrote all this and got nooo flak at all  !!am disappointed 

[ozz]

1st off you Europeans don’t seem to realize that the USA is a melting pot of all nationalities. We don’t support one superior ideology over any other due to some nationalistic pride that some other countries seem to support.

To say that the US is alone in expressing and influencing its international interest would be flat out fallacy. Europe/Asia have been engaging in influencing the world body far longer than the US has been in existence.

Case and point would be during WWW1 and its affects on Middle East and its issues that the US has been trying to mop up ever since.

At the beginning of November 1914, the Ottoman Empire, the world's greatest independent Islamic power, abandoned its ambivalent neutrality towards the warring parties, and became a belligerent in the conflict, with the sultan declaring a military jihad (holy war) against France, Russia and Great Britain.

Ottoman Empire represented a serious threat to the British Empire, so in a pre-emptive strike, London immediately landed an Anglo-Indian force at Basra, near the estuary of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers. This was done to protect the Anglo-Persian oil pipeline, which was vital to the British navy, and to show the Union Jack in this strategically important area in the Persian Gulf.

The war ended with the British occupying the territory that was to become Iraq, Palestine, Trans-Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.   

Britain set up a colonial regime in Iraq after a long military campaign during World War I. In response to Iraqi resistance, including a country-wide uprising in 1920, British forces battled for over a decade to pacify the country, using airplanes, armored cars, firebombs and mustard gas. Air attacks were used to shock and awe, to teach obedience and to force the collection of taxes. Winston Churchill, as responsible cabinet minister in the early years, saw Iraq as an experiment in high-technology colonial control. Though officials in London sometimes had qualms about the violence, colonial administrators on the ground like Gertrude Bell expressed enthusiasm for the power of the imperial military enterprise.

The United States abdicated any further role in the new European order after the summer of 1919, it was left to Britain and France to divide the Middle East between them. It cannot be said that either power displayed any great altruism when it came to deciding whether the indigenous peoples of the area were mature enough to be granted their independence. In April 1920, in the small Italian town of San Remo, Britain and France divide the Middle East into mandates while the American ambassador read his newspaper in the garden. Britain obtained Palestine, Transjordan 6 and Iraq; the French acquired Syria.
 (footnote) - Palestine and Transjordan remained a single administrative unit until 1946, but in 1922, Transjordan was detached from the area to which the Balfour Declaration applied. This has remained a grievance with the Zionist side, but it should be remembered that the area to the east of the river Jordan was definitely included in the area promised to Husayn in 1915; the linking of Palestine and Transjordan had been an administrative convenience for Britain and did not indicate any recognition of Zionist claims to the East Bank of the Jordan.
The League Mandate system was tailored to match the colonialist ambitions of the British and French in fact, while paying lip service to the American wishful thinking about self-determination. In accordance with the principles of the Balfour Declaration http://www.mideastweb.org/mebalfour.htm and Article 22 of the League Convenant, http://www.mideastweb.org/leaguemand.htm   the League of Nations drew up the Mandate for Palestine. The document underwent several transformations. Arab pressure and riots in Palestine had brought about the Churchill White Paper of 1922, which again reiterated the right of the Jews to a Homeland in Palestine. At this time, Britain detached all of the area east of the Jordan river from Palestine and gave it to the Hashemi family as an independent Arab state. Many historians believe that this was a sop to the Hashemites, who had lost Syria to the French and Saudi Arabia to ibn Saud. As noted above, others believe that Transjordan was never a part of Palestine. Maps drawn by the Zionists and presented for consideration during deliberations regarding the mandate included a part of  Transjordan.

All of this could be linked to most of the issues in the Middle East today, caused by the Europeans not the US, so who didn’t take responsibility for this mess? Has the US meddled in other countries affairs? Of course we have, but to say Europe is somehow exempt from this criticism would be to ignore the historical truth.

[MadSlob]

Yes you are quite right m8!!The major European powers have been meddling in the affairs of the world since day one.I wasn´t around to protest the actions of the European powers before 65 and too misinformed before i came here to sweden and learned what a goldmine of information the internet is.The american empire is the largest and most powerful in history and the most influencial.No empire in history has stretched around the world.Nor has any country made so much profit out of war than the USA.
And i DONT blame the average decent American but those greedy,evil F**kers in government who look out for themselves and to hell with everyone else!!Am too tired now to respond properly.will await a response and respond in depth..But essentially you are right m8.And of course we are more able to comment on america due to the wealth of information there is on the country.(unlike others)
 

[[DPRK]820th|Pvt.matt]

I understand where you are all coming from about religion and killing for it and I believe that people should all try to accept that everyone has different beliefs and we should all respect each other's beliefs.  But also I believe that if a conflict is going to take place then it should be founded in a person's beliefs, and not financial gain.  Throught history certain parties have taken people's beliefs and fueled their fire for violent protection of those beliefs and just taken the financial benifits from those conflicts pertaining to whose ideals are right.  Take the Salem witch trials for example: The religious officials believed that demonic forces had taken over people and had impriosoned many innocent individuals.  Aside from the religious aspect of the imprisonments, many greedy landowners falsely accused their neighbors of witchcraft and then took their land when their neighbors were imprisioned.  Also, the Crusades may have been founded upon Chrisitan ideals, but many knights and merchants used these ideals to pillage and plunder many innocent individuals property and then claim that God had told them to do it.  I am a Christian, but I do not believe that religious principles should be used to take more and more of the world and other people's money for yourself.  WE ARE ALL IN THIS THING TOGETHER

[ozz]

That was not what the crusades where about!!

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

[[DPRK]820th|Pvt.matt]

i understand that but that is not what i meant, i meant that some of the knights took advantage of many muslims and killed their childer and took their land, richard the lionhearted for example killed every man woman and child in the cities he attacked,  i believe that a country or group of countries has the right to defend itself against the violent expansion of the others but it should not be a reason for certain groups to prey upon that just fight and make profit offof it.  That is happening now in iraq with the companies in america preying upon america's need to stay in the fight and just want to make money, even though they are already loaded. 

Sry if i offended you with my views on the crusades.

[[DPRK]820th|MSGT.Tnerb]

Madslob:  thank goodness that not all of us Americans think like you.  One thing that I have noticed in most of this dialog is that the U.S. is at fault?  Why?  Iraq during Gulf War I invaded Kuwait!  Was Iraq looking to expand territory?  How about oil fields?  "A big Yes" you claim we are doing the same thing.  I guess that is what one would call the pot calling the kettle black. Except we have turned the country over to a provision government.

You may also recall that there were 14 security council measures past, this was not just the U.S. this was from the U.N.,There are over "80 eighty" countries involved.   Do you not recall that during the Clinton Administration there was a call for regime change, or did you forget.  The problem is some of the democrats forgot to walk softly and carry a big stick.  When it comes time to use do it without empty rhetoric. 

History repeats itself my friend, ask the French, after WWI they never wanted to be involved with another war.  The built the Majorinore line(forgive spelling) in an effort to tell the Germans they were dug in.  Women told children "do not fight children, you can talk you differences out"!     Mean while in the German culture, children were being taught that they were the supreme and invincible, as a result when the two cultures collided the ones that wanted to talk and negotiate their differences lost...  The French had an army three times the size of the Germans but it was the training from childhood that payed of for the Germans, they could not be beat! 

Maybe you have heard this before (Mark My words) in otherwords remember what I'm saying.  I'm drawing on history.  Watch what happens in Iran, also Palestine as they are teaching their children to hate their neighbors the (Jews).  We will be pulled into another war if Iran does not put a stop to nuclear testing and creation.  Also note that Iran recently made it mandatory to identify one self by placing a cross for Christian on your clothing as well as the Star of David for Jews.  Remember this is what Hitler did as well.  Ironic isn't it..... 

The English know this all to well whilst Chamberlain was lobbying for peace Germany invades Austria, then Belgium, France.  Saying we are not going anyfurther, meanwhile robbing and looting the banks and rounding up not only the Jewish peoples but Gypsies, re-tarded individuals anyone who was not considered Arian and exterminated them.

Fast forward  to Iraq, 1990, the Kurds are being slaughtered, their wetlands drained.  Can we bring back their lives no.  Can we right a wrong no, can we try yes....During Gulf war I the United Nations did not allow the full invasion of Iraq.  This is were the blame should be put for Gulf war II.  Had Hussein been removed from power then Odey and Uday may not have been aspiring dictators.

Sad part is we can't roll back history or stick our head in the sand like an Ostrich you and I have no control over what happened with slavery or the civil war all you can do is learn by our mistakes and others and enact legislation to bring attention and hope order is regained.

You made a comment about a man, our president, a person whom you probably have never met and yet have made him out to be aloof or unable to govern.  First like most college kids or privileged kids he got in to trouble, drinking and dope fortunately he was able to beat those addictions.  Many do not!

He got his life back on track, became Governor of Texas twice! worked with the state legislator and championed education and turned the state around scholastically.  This to me is suspect!  How would a person that you described become Governor not only once but twice and have the accomplishments he has had not only that he became president, oh my gosh twice!  But he doesn't know what he is doing.  All I have to say is that public office is a very high calling.  When you consider what he is paid, to have your family your reputation and to listen and take the heat for every little mistake in everyones life it must be a higher calling.  This would be the last job you or I would ever want.

According to the left he is responsible for the war, Katrina, Avian flu, high gas prices....  I need to add something. High gas prices, let me see the liberals won't allow us to drill in Anwar Alaska, a 28,0000 square mile preserve because it might mess up the indigenous herd's.  Give me a break.... We can't drill off our coast in Florida because of tourism, we haven't built another nuclear power plant since the 3 mile island incident .  We can't burn wood because of smog , we aren't allowed to have a timber industry.  Since we can't have all of the above we do have some of the benefits a world increasing in demand for power due not only to our need but evolving economies such as China wanting to drive automobiles these take gas, power plants use fuel, and housing cost are up due to the supply and imports of lumber from Canada. 

Massachusetts won't use air turbine power because it may obstruct the view of shipping vessel, more like it will obstruct the view of the rich of the Atlantic.

The positives are this, we live in a free country you and I can agree to disagree on a number of issues, there is certainly a lot of blame to go around.  Until industry wakes up to the fact that they need to develope automobiles with 40MPG plus they won't, renewable energy such as Florida could use solar, 99.99% choose not to, if only part of the energy they saved by using solar panels could be diverted to airconditioning, refridgeration and small appliance there would be a huge shift of dependency.

Problem is that not only should we be looking at multifuel vehicles but multifuel appliances and tax rebates for those that invest in the cost to help develope said technologies.

Later,

Tnerb, Tampa Florida, / Michigan...



 

[[82nd]SF|Cpt.Malice]

I agree with most of what you said Tnerb... wait for it... BUT.

You made a comment about a man, our president, a person whom you probably have never met and yet have made him out to be aloof or unable to govern.  First like most college kids or privileged kids he got in to trouble, drinking and dope fortunately he was able to beat those addictions.  Many do not!

Looking back on a lot of presidents, there are only really two different types.  A couple rare exceptions in there, i.e. Ronald Reagan

Bad man - Great President.
Great Guy - Bad President. 

I would totally love to sit around and eat BBQ, drink a few beers with President Bush.  But the guy just can't lead.  I only voted for him because 1) My options weren't that great and 2) He needed to pick up his toys in middle east sandbox. 

Jimmy Carter.  Sweet nice generous humble man.  Sucked ass as a president. 

You also mentioned the hatred for the Jews, it read as if this was something new.  Like in the last 20 years.  It's been pure hatred forever, and certainly since 1947.  Suddenly the Jews got some land and could grow oranges the size of basketballs and then out of no where it became their bloodland of heritage and blah blah blah.  All they want is half, supposedly.  The amount of land is like a matchbook to the size of a football field when compared to the arab land around them.  50,000,000 Jews compared to 500,000,000 million arabs.  What if the situation was reversed? 

[Mbuna]

um, religion and politics suck. the bottom line to each is money/power.

and lawdog i dont know where you got the idea that to jews the word 'gentile' means basicly 'scum of the earth', it just means non-jew. hindus and mormons also use that term. the word you are thinking of is 'goyum' or 'goy', kinda like 'kike' or heeb'... 

*after reading this again i just wanted to add that i do not mean to offend anyone. i think everyone should believe in whatever they want and im not in any place to say what is right or wrong anyways.

[[DPRK]820th|MSGT.Tnerb]

Malice:  I'm 41 years young and I have seen a number of Presidents already.  You mention Carter so I think you are probably close to my age and can relate. 

History is not done with his presidency, a couple of note worthy items he took over after the country was rocked by not only the end of the Vietnam war, but also a lot of mistrust in government. I'm not sure if it was Lincoln or another individual that mentioned that a person can't be judged by history until a 100 years passes.
Remember up until 1992 the Democrats controlled not only Congress but the Senate.  During that time interest rates for new homes rose to over 14% car loans, don't even ask.  Most people decided to put another $500.00 into their current car and drive the wheels off the thing.  Today, the cars are more expensive but we have more selection and believe it or not better mileage than say a Olds Delta 88, with 8 MPG.

To my point:  Carter worked to eliminate what people thought was a lot of money being spent in foreign lands.  I.E. Panama canal, we gave up control of this vital sea short cut to the Panamanian  General Noreiga, counter point Reagan had to deal with this guy.  Now the Chinese are working to control this vital link.  I would lot rather see us control this strategic point.  Too late we gave it away.

Yes Carter tried for peace with Bagin and Sadat  but this too failed. 

Iran: when the Shaw of Iran wanted to get treatment for cancer in the U.S. he was turned away.  This is a country Jimmy Carter wanted to turn over to the religious groups, this created a power struggle and Kohmani came out on top.  Then our Embassy was over thrown, and a number of people were held hostage.  The military tried to rescue them but equipment and training were lacking due to the cut backs in defense and this ended tragically.

Reagan dealt with this issue:  Reagan was such a gentleman that he allowed Carter the lime light to meet and greet the freed Americans.  Reagan could have grandstanded but took the higher road!

Now the only time Carter speaks is when he is lambasting Bush for what Carter calls an "Illegal War".  This to me is treason.  Here is a past president who has a lack luster precidency and takes issue with the current administration.  He interjected himself into the Palestinian election and they elected Hamas, basically a group the Western world deams a terrorist group. Certainly not another feather in his cap....

This reminds me all to often of our own system where the D.C. Mayor Marion Berry, was re-elected after being taped using Crack Cocaine...  What a Country.

There were issues that we are dealing with in the area of communism in Afganistan during that time period as well and yes we are there today as well.

You may not know this but at one time the Iragi people had one of the finest medical systems in the world.  This was all piliged by Hussein and the Bathist party.  They eliminated womens rights and forbid them from going to schools.  Remember these are the persons raising the children, they have a vital impact in how the child is raised and educated.  If no more higher education is available, how is the mother to impart this knowledge.  It would certainly be much better than learning how to build a bomb to kill not only themselves but also their neighbor.

I quess this is my point.  I we do not as a "people" stand in defense of those who cannot defend themselves than who will stand for you and I when we are unable to.  Remember, we are young now.  What happens in Ten maybe twenty years when you are walking down the street and someone tries to rob you.  The generation of children being raised in a single family home no-longer teach the "Golden Rule" the Pledge of Allegiance or even minimally understand that the Ten Commandments was used to establish rule of law in this country.   No, instead... and god forbid you or I may be a victim.

 People are more than just short sighted, they are here for the instant gratification, you would think that we are a nation that as a whole has A.D.D.  (Attention Defict Dissorder)  (Short Attention Span that effects learning to the point an indivdiual is unable to concentrate). 

The United States was attacked almost five years ago.  But they have forgotten. 

I have not. 


Tnerb

[Mbuna]

This reminds me all to often of our own system where the D.C. Mayor Marion Berry, was re-elected after being taped using Crack Cocaine...  What a Country.

ya that really shows you what D.C is all about...
and dont forget about the president! an alcoholic (convicted of dui) pothead and cokehead not only was elected president (maybe) but he was re-elected! oh ya, and dont forget the vice presidents 2 dui's! 

[P4KISTANI]

Was there something that i missed?